Just to drive the point home (because some people apparently need such assistance), here’s a hypo:
Our Characters
Bernie Blowhard goes to marches, posts blog entries, and spends a lot of time talking about how women shouldn’t have to take precautions against having their handbags and purses stolen, and railing against men who tell them they should.
Jane Doe and Susie Schmoe are two average, every-day girls, and owners of purses handbags and handbags.
Freddie Friend and Peter Pal are friends of Jane and Susie respectively.
Tommy Thief is a purse and handbag thief.
Freddie smells what Bernie is cooking, and any time Jane expresses concern about the safety of her handbag at the bars, he is very careful to never suggest that she take precautions to avoid it being stolen.
Peter thinks Bernie is a douchebag, and harps on Susie, almost to the point of annoyance, that she should be careful when at the bars with her handbag, and always has some practical and simple ways to help out.
Peter and Freddie leave the country… for no apparent reason whatsoever, except that it makes this hypo a little cleaner.
One night, Susie is out at the bar when Tommy, a man with whom she is unfamiliar, brings her a drink. Red-flags go off in Susie’s head, and she politely turns down the drink, and never hears from Bernie again.
That same night, in a different bar, Tommy approaches Jane with a drink. Unaware that the drink contains a magical sleeping potion, she happily takes the drink and chats with Tommy for a while. Eventually, she falls asleep right there at the bar, and awakes a few hours later to find that she’s missing her handbag. Tommy, of course, is sitting at his apartment, counting Jane’s money.
Questions:
- Who is a “but for” cause of the theft of Jane’s handbag?
- Who is blameworthy?
- Who should be punished?
- Who is a “but for” cause of the theft of Susie’s handbag?
- If Susie’s handbag had been stolen, would she feel worse about it than Jane?
- Do you think Jane is ok with having had her handbag stolen?
- Do you think Susie would prefer to not have her handbag stolen, or to have it stolen and not feel quite as bad (a la Jane)?
- Who would you rather be, Jane or Susie?
- Who would you rather have as a friend, Freddie or Peter?
- Is Bernie a douche-bag?
Answers:
- Pretty much everyone, but specifically Jane (for drinking the drink) and Tommy (for, you know, stealing the purse). You might be able to argue, in light of the other failed theft, that Freddie is, too, but if you go that far you might as well toss Bernie on the heap, which is probably a little extreme, but you could make the (weak) case.
- Clearly, despite being causes, the only person who is blameworthy, here, is Tommy
- Obviously Jane should be punished. Just kidding. It’s Tommy again.
- Susie’s handbag didn’t get stolen, remember, because Peter forged in her mind that taking drinks from strangers was a Bad Idea™
- Maybe, but only because she didn’t listen to Peter.
- No, I doubt it.
- I imagine she’d probably prefer to have her handbag than not.
- Susie, maybe?
- In this hypo, definitely
PetePeter. - Yeah, basically.
Isn’t it odd how neither the girls, nor their friends, are to blame or should be punished for the handbag theft? So maybe the moral of the Hypo is that we should blame the thieves (Tommy) for thefts and not the advocates of precaution taking (Peter). Just a thought.
So essentially society shoud make sure that thieves know what they’re doing is wrong and that they’ll be punished for it? That’s funny, because that seems to be exactly what Grant’s point was.
Ahhh yes… another law student that doesn’t understand that words have meanings.
Grant’s post said:
“Instead of [taking precautions]…”
“Instead of”? Why instead of? Why not “In addition to”?
Grant’s post led off with “Instead of [taking precautions]” and I can’t support that sort of tortured logic.
Pete–stop being a lawyer-in-training for 2 seconds. Don’t argue this one. It makes you look ignorant, which you aren’t. You’ve let law school affect your judgment here and battled Grant on a point that you likely agree 100% on.
Pete you fool! I can’t believe you forgot that we live in a perfect world and as long as the criminals are aware of the punishments attached to their crimes they won’t commit any. That’s why I like to leave my front door wide open, and my wallet, filled with money, stapled to my forehead.
But seriously, I read Grant’s post and I agree that we should spread the word that “it’s not okay to rape someone”, but the fact is, people are still going to be raped! And I think it’s in everyone’s best interest to do whatever they can to protect themselves.
Pete.
You poor misinformed child. “Instead of that bullshit” MEANS “instead of you telling girls that they should be careful.. YOU should tell guys to never rape.” GIRLS KNOW BAD THINGS HAPPEN. How many guys have you told that they are being sexist? How many guys have you told that you think they may have overstepped their bounds w/ a drunk girl? How many guys have you taken to task when they talk about “the chick w/ the titties in the red shirt”?
Instead of does not mean “don’t tell girls to be safe”.. it means “for a change go tell guys to stop being fucking pigs.”
You are so concerned about how you look, you don’t remind me of the type to step out of his safety zone and tell guys to shut their face because they’re being disrespectful. you remind me of the nebbish that giggles ’cause he wants to be liked and lets the guys be disrespectful at the expense of women. Why else would you keep posting trying to make sure no one thinks you’re a bad guy. Why wouldn’t you say, ‘i think we should still tell them to be safe, grant, buy you have a point… maybe we should tell other dudes to stop being sexually agressive.’..
Come out from that sissy wall of “it’s gonna happen” and start doing something to make a change for the better.
p.s. do i get my own character?
The problem is, Pete, you’re reading the words and missing the message, in both your post and mine.
Do I honestly think you believe what your post seems to say? No. You’re not stupid.
Am I the only one that thinks your post says what I said it does? No, again. You pissed off plenty of people today with what you said.
Then to compound your misinterpretation of what I said, simply because you don’t like two of the words, by calling me a “fucking moron” and a “douchebag.” That’s just childish.
You’re smarter and better than that. I know because you got into law school.
Anonymous: I’m going to argue it because I am at least as annoyed by this tyrnanny of ignorance as I am by the fact that Grant’s post advocated talking about how bad rape is “instead of” trying to prevent it.
Shad: It is going to happen. Rape will happen. Murder will happen. Theft will happen. We already have extremely stiff penalties for murder and rape, and they still go on. Women can either be more or less safe, as they choose, and I hope that my friends choose to be more safe because all of the “should” in the world, doesn’t keep men from doing things they shouldn’t.
Grant: If you actually believe that saying “Rape is bad” enough times is a good substitute for being careful, then you are a fucking moron but I never called you that specifically. I also never called you a douchebag. Not because I don’t think you are, but because whether you are or not is irrelevant to the merits of this argument.
And if people are pissed that I think women should take precautions, then I guess that’s their call… but I’m not bothered by it.
i think i figured it out. pete doesn’t have any guy friends. pete only has female friends. pete has no one to tell “don’t rape”. so he does what he can and says “be careful” to his girlfrinds. shit pete, i’m sorry. i didn’t even think about that. please continue to fight the good fight and tell your girlfriends to stay safe. don’t worry about the big mean men. but you should definitely keep yourself safe too. watch your drinks, wear a hat, don’t go out alone at night. there are bad, bad people. now that i think about it, you’re 6′ and 150lbs, you might just be a target too, so be careful.
the truth is, and please address this… I’m not saying anything about ‘the should’ as you called it. I’m saying for all your big talk and rhetoric, why don’t you, peter jason thomas booth, why don’t you say “don’t rape” to boys? you will still have enough time to say “be careful” to girls. look how much you’ve said today. this is “the bullshit” the article talks about.. people like you being too scared to address the predators, so you address the prey instead and say be careful. i bet if some dude made some crack to you about what’d he’d like to do to kecia or ara, you’d have something to say to him. wouldn’t you?
Okay, seriously, this is ridiculous.
How many people think that saying “don’t murder” is going to keep murderers from murdering? How many people think that saying “don’t steal cars” is going to keep car-stealers from stealing cars?
Hell, for that matter, how many people think saying “don’t smoke” is going to keep smokers from smoking? How many of you think that labeling every pack of cigarettes with the effective warning that “THESE THINGS WILL KILL YOU, MORON! YOU WILL DIE A SLOW, NASTY DEATH FROM THESE CANCER STICKS!” will keep smokers from smoking?
Even so, it’s not a bad idea to explain to people (not just men!) what rape is and why it’s wrong.
So sure, we should blame rapists for raping - who else should we blame? We should blame rapists regardless of whether they jump out of bushes at Bryan Park or whether they drug a drink at a bar or whether they help a drunk girl wearing a short skirt up to a bedroom at the frat house. Why? Because the rapist is the one doing the raping!
But in the same way that people who lock their cars are a lot less likely to have their CDs stolen, girls who get their own drinks are a lot less likely to end up with GHB Coladas. This is a fact. There will always be risks, no matter how many precautions a woman takes, but those precautions necessarily lessen the risks.
This line of thought applies to all crimes, not just rape. Pick up any Fodor’s or AAA guide and they’ll say in no uncertain terms that (regardless of gender!) you shouldn’t carry a lot of cash around a large urban area. Why? Because you might get robbed and it doesn’t hurt to take precautions to minimize damages!
Guys: don’t rape. Rape is wrong.
Girls: don’t take unnecessary risks. Taking a risk doesn’t make the result your fault, but it does mean that you had a potential opportunity to prevent the result. Don’t become statistics - become active in your own safety.
Heyyyyy!!!!!
lookie, lookie! Nick said it all!
Sounds good to me!
…which is what I’ve been saying from the very first post, Shad. If you’d removed your head from your ass long enough to read what I’ve actually written, you’d know that.
Instead of does not mean “don’t tell girls to be safe”.. it means “for a change go tell guys to stop being fucking pigs.”
Actually, this is exactly what “instead of” means. If that wasn’t what the poster intended his message to be, then he shouldn’t have used that phrase.
Think about this examples:
“Instead of orange juice, I’d like apple juice.”
This does not mean that I want both orange juice and apple juice; it means that I want no orange juice and that I specifically want apple juice in place of orange juice. It means that I do not want any orange juice at all, in fact.
Check out the dictionary definition if you’re not convinced: 1. In the place of something previously mentioned; as a substitute or an equivalent: Having planned to drive, we walked instead. 2. In preference; as an alternative: yearned instead for a home and family.
So when someone says “instead of telling girls to take precautions, tell guys not to rape,” they are saying specifically that they do not want people to tell girls to take precautions. They are saying that they want to tell guys to stop raping TO THE EXCLUSION of the other option.
And again, if that’s not what the author of that post meant, then it’s not what the author of that post should have said.
Um, yeah, shad. I wrote all that because I agreed with Pete, not because I agreed with you…
ok first of all, if I say “stop being an ignorant fucktard and stop responding,” most of you would still respond to this. My point- telling people not to do something does not equal them not doing it. It probably makes them want to do it more. Especially when it riles them up. i.e. child molesters- they’ve done their measly community service and are told not to molest. Sure enough, it happens over and over again. http://www.meganslaw.com biatches! If that’s not convincing then you should try working at a rape center or actually reaching out to someone who has been raped. They tell their rapists “no,” “don’t rape me” but does that work? NO! Just because you think that you have self control over what you do to someone else and a simple “no, don’t rape” is enough to stop you, doesn’t mean that it’s enough to stop some horny ass loser. And really, you guys need more female friends because you clearly have no compassion for women. Nor do you know what it’s like to be a woman who has to learn self-defense, who has to take out keys before they enter a garage, who has to carry mace around simply because telling men “don’t rape” was not enough.
Nor do you know what it’s like to be a woman who has to learn self-defense, who has to take out keys before they enter a garage, who has to carry mace around
This is all good advice for men, too. (Is this where I should say something like “you need more friends of either sex because you clearly have no compassion for people”?)
Perhaps I’m not likely to be raped, and given that I’m 6′5″ and weigh 220 pounds, perhaps I’m not a likely target for a mugging, either. Nonetheless, I take out my keys before I enter a garage and I know how to defend myself well enough; I don’t carry mace, but I do often carry a large-enough pocketknife that I know how to use well enough not to get myself stabbed with it.
I don’t do this because I think it’s likely that I’ll get mugged (I don’t); I do this because it’s generally a good idea to take safety precautions that have virtually no cost.
As most women are no more likely to be raped than men are to be mugged in such situations (most rapes are not stranger rapes, they’re date rapes and such) I don’t see how it’s any different for women than it is for men to have their keys out. It’s a good idea for people of both genders to take such precautions.
Oh, and don’t forget: don’t rape.