First an update on CKI Drama: I received an email from Shea today requesting that I remove my copy of the email that she sent. While this is a legitimate request, I told her that her options were to allow me to post the email, or allow me to summarize it in my own words. I’m sure you all realize that the one thing that I’d enjoy more than posting the email, is getting to reproduce it with my own slant. She’s not responded, but I’m sure she was probably not pleased. This is of little concern to me, however. The issues surrounding this situation would’ve remained fairly private and secret, except that she wanted to make a fuss about how she was being treated so she needed to look like the victim. You can’t do that without sharing a little info.
That, however, was not the highlight of the evening. I had the distinct privilege of speaking with one of my favorite Tennesseans in the whole world… who shall remain nameless to keep the evil minions of the KI Office from unleashing their wrath upon her for speaking to me. She posed and interesting question, one to which there was much discussion. Unfortunately, I had to go and was sufficiently inspired to warrant a post on the topic, so here goes.
When Dating, who should pay?
Now, attending school at the fine southern institution that IS the University of Alabama, you might expect me to shout, unequivocally, that the man should pay. After all, that’s what they try so hard to teach all the good little southern boys and girls. While charming and nice, however, I think the rules of chivalry are (by and large) pretty freakin’ stupid. In the beginning of a dating relationship I think the person that asks should be the person that pays. Later in the relationship (about the time when dates start to be assumed rather than asked for) it should be a mostly even split.
Now, I may seem a bit of a hypocrite, as I love to pay. I fight to pay. I’m a payer. But that’s just me, it’s not because I don’t think the woman CAN pay… it’s just how I am with my money, I like spending it on other people. But ANYWAY… back to the story.
You see, I’ve believed for a long time that this “Girls shouldn’t ask guys out” business is little more than a front for girls to hide behind so that they don’t have to face the rejection of asking a guy out. After all, when it comes right down to it, a huge reason why guys don’t ask girls out is that same fear… girls just have an opportunity to make an excuse and hide behind antiquated notions of courtship.
I think the whole situation depends largely upon who is trying to impress, and who is being chased. If the guy is being chased (and some people think that’s trashy or desperate of the girl) then doesn’t it make sense for the woman to court him? Ask him out? Pay for his dinner? Etc…? On the same token, if the girl is playing coy and the guy is on the prowl, shouldn’t he do the same?
Lots of girls seem to think that the whole courtship process is like fishing. You use some sort of bait or lure, cast, and then wait for a bite. Ooooh… but you didn’t want TROUT, you wanted a BASS! So just toss the poor trout back in the sea, lather, rinse, repeat. It’s a really sick game, and one that often seems to leave gals a little disheartened. I’ve heard a great deal of complaints about a particular guy not asking a particular girl out, despite her hints.
This brings me to another pet peeve that I’ll touch briefly. Men are obtuse and women are vague. Worse than being vague, however, women are often illogical. This is a horrible combination. Some of the smartest guys I know don’t pick up on these alleged “hints” because they don’t flow logically. You almost have to understand how the woman’s mind works in order to “take a hint.” Of course, the only REAL way to pick up on most womanly hints is to be a damn mind-reader.
That’s ok, though. It’s kinda fun, although I think it’d be much more interesting if women were active buyers in the market, instead of passive consumers of whatever comes their way.
You can, of course, leave your thoughts in the comment box.
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June 27th, 2003 at 12:06 am
DISCLAIMER: regardless of how many generalizations I just made, I do realize that each woman is a unique, special creature — just like the rest of them. So we\’re not going to play the \”Shut up, you\’re so wrong, I\’m not like that!\” game.
As lord and master of this comments box, I hereby authorize generalizations to be used freely (with the standard disclaimer not necessary) and over sensitivities shall be banned.
June 27th, 2003 at 7:42 am
I don\’t think girls are quite as passive as you are making them out to be. Though, of course, I have never lived in the South. I could be wrong, but I don\’t see the \”Boys ask girls out\” rule applying all that much. (In the not-South that is)
Most girls I know do not just sit back and hope something comes there way. Girls are out pursuing guys all the time… though not always by directly asking them out on a date. It\’s so complicated. I will just stop there.
June 27th, 2003 at 7:54 am
Of course not… why ask a guy out? He might say no!
June 27th, 2003 at 8:28 am
I\’ve come up with a solution to the whole rejection problem. People need to be fitted with a light, much like a taxi cab, that would indicate interest. If you see a woman that piques your interest, your light would be on. If her light was on, you\’d know that you could approach her. If the light was off -or- if she turned her light off upon seeing you approaching, you\’d know that she is \”off-duty\” & you coould look for another cab…err…woman.
No light - no rejection. Problem solved.
June 27th, 2003 at 10:22 am
Ah yes Pete, nice post. And one that has already received some discussion. I AM from the South and my ENTIRE life I have been taught that it is bad form for girls to chase guys. Most southern boys also know this. It\’s understood, like guys putting the toilet seat down. Why put the seat down? Who the hell knows! Guys are just SUPPOSED to do it. Girls are allowed to flirt excessively, pass hints through friends, and in general take it plain that they want him to ask her out BUT ultimately, it should be the guys job. ::NOTE TO GIRLS - This is just like phones. It\’s the guys job to call. You should not, under any circumstances call a guy more than he calls you:: I know that girls don\’t make any sense, but that\’s why guys practice! I know all this chivalry doesn\’t make sense, and as I said, girls don\’t make sense… so LOGICALLY (that\’s what guys want, right) the two must go hand in hand!
AS FOR PAYING… Since it was the guy that asked the girl out he should definitely pay. And if for some weird reason, the girl was retarded and asked him out, he should pay anyway! Be a gentleman! (Hold on to your hats feminists) Being paid for makes you feel needed, makes you feel like he wants to take care of you, like he likes being out with you. After a while, if it\’s obvious that you\’re going to keep seeing each other THEN it is okay for the girl to pay. BUT if they guy is truly a gentleman then he will hardly ever, if ever let her pay. ::NOTE TO GIRLS - You should offer to pay. It\’s polite. But again, if he\’s a gentleman, he won\’t let you:: Guy short on cash? Be creative! Do something cheap like take the girl on a picnic! And girls, don\’t be a shrew if he can only afford to take you to Taco Bell.
::LAST NOTE TO GIRLS - Don\’t be so melodramatic and heart broken all the time. If he likes you, he\’ll ask you out. If he doesn\’t than get over it. He\’s probably a jerk anyway. Stop playing the victim!::
Okay, this has gotten rather long. I\’ll get off my soapbox and shut up.
June 27th, 2003 at 12:19 pm
Also being a Southern girl, I agree alot with what Amanda said. I\’ve never asked a guy out and don\’t plan on it. Paying comes with asking. The girl should be nice enough to offer to pay her way or at least leave the tip (if the date involves a meal), but, as the previous post stated, the guy should be gentleman enough to refuse. I personally would take a \”cheap\” date over an ordinary one anytime, but maybe that\’s just me.
June 27th, 2003 at 1:08 pm
The amazing thing to me is that lots of southerners believe, as a matter of faith, that this whole gentleman business is the best way. I mean, if that\’s what you WANT then I guess it\’s good to sit around and wait for it. I\’m not one to tell people what they should and shouldn\’t want most of the time, but it\’s also somewhat silly to think that that standard should hold true for everyone. After all, there are a ton of women who don\’t buy into the obsoleted notion of the \”Southern Gentleman\”
As for me, this is one of the big reasons I\’ll be getting out of the south at my first opportunity.
Out of curiosity, does it seem a little hypocritical for a woman to expect a guy to play all of these southern games, but then also expect him to respect her independance?
June 27th, 2003 at 1:23 pm
The only girls not WANTING a Southern Gentleman are the girls that haven\’t experienced them. Those of us that have will continue to sit and wait. I hope there are some in Arizona
Maybe I shouldn\’t be leaving the south after all…
June 27th, 2003 at 3:10 pm
I don\’t need someone to \”respect my independence.\” If you\’re referring to things like women wanting to join the work force because they don\’t need any men - if I\’m able to be a sweet little housewife while my husband is the breadwinner, I\’m OK with that.
June 27th, 2003 at 9:25 pm
Well Pete… since I know the ladies flock to all Holiday\’s(males). I have a feeling the good ole\’ Petey is making all of this stuff up as he goes. And I would also like to add he is doing a pretty good job of it too. I knew my bro had game.
June 28th, 2003 at 9:08 am
In my experience, in a place like Arizona, chivalry is not expected or the norm. That\’s probably why it\’s so refreshing.
Now, I\’ve never lived in the South or dated a true Southern gentleman or anything, but we\’re all familiar with the cliche. I think–for non-Southerners–the trick must be to be old-school chivalrous yet in a refreshing way: while respecting the woman\’s independence. Again, where I\’m from, respecting the woman\’s independence/decisions/etc. is far more important than paying for a date or holding a car door open. But if you manage to do all of those things without insulting the girl in the process (only a side-effect of you being an innate jerk or of the girl mistakenly thinking, \”My goodness; he must think I CAN\’T open my own car door!\”), you\’re golden.
I don\’t remember much about dating in the Midwest, but in Phoenix, girls get what they want–without \”waiting for him to call\” or wasting time playing hard-to-get. And by the way, unless you really like that part of the chase, just pick a more interesting guy.
*****
Cute story/tip: On my first date with my boyfriend just over a year and a half ago, he took me to a pretty nice place and put his credit card with the bill with no discussion. It was pretty expensive and a first date, so I certainly offered to pay, at least for my half.
His technique was this: he said that he would get \”this one\” and that I could get \”the next one\” if I wanted. I found this to be a fabulous technique since it (1) shows he wants to and doesn\’t mind paying for you, (2) subtly and cutely brings up that he\’d be interested in having another date with you, and (3) suggests that since he asked you out this time, perhaps you would like to plan/have more control over the next date. The further implications are that–since he\’s established he\’s interested in you–you can call him/ask him out/etc. without being afraid of rejection. As long as you feel the same way, I think it\’s just a nice tone to have entering a second date.
Anyway, so I guess the only purpose of my sharing that is to provide an interesting technique to guys who don\’t want to worry about paying all the time or not. I\’m done.
June 28th, 2003 at 10:26 am
Thanks um, Matt maybe… Sounds promising…
June 28th, 2003 at 11:13 am
When a boy pays for me all the time I experience major deja vu from my street-corner days…or have I shared those w/you yet, Pete?… :-X
June 29th, 2003 at 2:48 pm
I have no problem paying…I just want to know what the hell women actually want! Some think they want you to pay, some don\’t, most just can\’t make up their damn mind! Same thing seems to go for everything that applies to women…the majority can\’t make up their mind what the hell they want!
July 24th, 2004 at 2:28 am
I seem to remember reading this WAY back when it was written (the few times I viewed the site that time around)… and I STILL love this entry.
Gosh, dating seems different in the south. Yeah… I’ve asked guys out (they’ve refused outright… or refused before I got to that point [worse, since that wasn't necessarily my intention]).
It’s a complicated world we live in… the person who’s still living at home and has a great job likely has more money than the one who has moved out and has a bad job etc. so sometimes this has something to do with it too.
Also, there’s the whole evolutionary psychology perspective… which I don’t particularly want to get into… but the apparent Southern Dating style seems to follow many of those arguments…. yeah.
I very much like this topic!!